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Moderator: malducin

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By malducin
#11527
It's funny that you have a Star Wars metaphor. After all the Rebels had to resort to War to overthrow Palpatine ;-).

It's not like I (and I suspect many) people are pro-war. Most people don't want war but sometimes you have to use the last option. I also believe most anti-war people don't have a leg to stand on, they are just as guilty as the gung-hos for all out war or the right side morons (Freedon Fries anyone). Just to give you a sample:

* Where were all the protesters when NATO had to take charge of the mess in Bosnia and Kosovo in particular. No UN resolution there while there was ethnic cleansing going on. Where were they when the US went into Afganistan and wiped out (for the most part) the Taliban? Or the invasion of Panama and Grenada? Or the numerous other times like the Soviet invasion of Afganistan too, or the bombing in Libya? Where was the world when the mess in Ruanda happened. Or the civil unrest in Indonesia?

* Where were all these people when Saddam has killed over 100,000 Kurds. Including the 5,000 dead in the single attack in Halabja, about 15 years ago. No one gives a crap about the Kurds it seems. I wonder if many people would complain if the minority in the North was Christian or Jewish. It's been

* By the UNICEF own numbers it seems the economic sanction have helped kill about a million Iraquis, around half of those children. UNICEF estimated that if we continued doing the same for the next 10 or so years, as most of the UN countries wanted, the sanctions might kill around 600,000 more kids. The UN already has its hands in blood. The UN sanctions have probably killed more people than anyone, including Saddam.

* Does anyone really believe that continued inspections and sanctions would cause Saddam to step down or have him arrested? Are all these people so naive? This guy is as bad as Hitler and they want to pussyfoot around these. If the same thing happened WWII, Hitler would have wiped out all the Jews, France would be celebrating Oktoberfest instead of Bastille day and who knows what else.

It's not that I particularly like Bush, franfly most politicians are scum anyway. But there are always different levels. Frankly I believe the problem in North Korea is worse, but maybe its time to cleanup the mes that is the Middle East (which are still living like the Middle Ages, what does being a Muslim country have to do anything with it?)

Sometimes I just wish a big a$$ asteroid would come down and clean out the gene pool.
User avatar
By EwanMagic
#11537
malducin wrote:It's funny that you have a Star Wars metaphor. After all the Rebels had to resort to War to overthrow Palpatine ;-).

It's not like I (and I suspect many) people are pro-war. Most people don't want war but sometimes you have to use the last option. I also believe most anti-war people don't have a leg to stand on, they are just as guilty as the gung-hos for all out war or the right side morons (Freedon Fries anyone). Just to give you a sample:

* Where were all the protesters when NATO had to take charge of the mess in Bosnia and Kosovo in particular. No UN resolution there while there was ethnic cleansing going on. Where were they when the US went into Afganistan and wiped out (for the most part) the Taliban? Or the invasion of Panama and Grenada? Or the numerous other times like the Soviet invasion of Afganistan too, or the bombing in Libya? Where was the world when the mess in Ruanda happened. Or the civil unrest in Indonesia?

* Where were all these people when Saddam has killed over 100,000 Kurds. Including the 5,000 dead in the single attack in Halabja, about 15 years ago. No one gives a crap about the Kurds it seems. I wonder if many people would complain if the minority in the North was Christian or Jewish. It's been

* By the UNICEF own numbers it seems the economic sanction have helped kill about a million Iraquis, around half of those children. UNICEF estimated that if we continued doing the same for the next 10 or so years, as most of the UN countries wanted, the sanctions might kill around 600,000 more kids. The UN already has its hands in blood. The UN sanctions have probably killed more people than anyone, including Saddam.

* Does anyone really believe that continued inspections and sanctions would cause Saddam to step down or have him arrested? Are all these people so naive? This guy is as bad as Hitler and they want to pussyfoot around these. If the same thing happened WWII, Hitler would have wiped out all the Jews, France would be celebrating Oktoberfest instead of Bastille day and who knows what else.

It's not that I particularly like Bush, franfly most politicians are scum anyway. But there are always different levels. Frankly I believe the problem in North Korea is worse, but maybe its time to cleanup the mes that is the Middle East (which are still living like the Middle Ages, what does being a Muslim country have to do anything with it?)

Sometimes I just wish a big a$$ asteroid would come down and clean out the gene pool.


It sound like you are trashing those anti-war peace
lovers. ( Such as..Nobel Prize - Peace Award winners
)

Surely they anti-Saddam too ,but it's not that ergent
to say something ,because UN is working on it.

In Star Wars ,Nobody wants wars to come ,only
if they has already lost their freedom.

Did iraq attack and take over the world already?
And did iraq attack US already?
Should we make excution before the judgement been
made by THE WHOLE WORLD SOCIETY?

Should USA be the only one police and ruler ,and
set a example that USA's VALUE is the only correct
VALUE in the WHOLE world.

Soemthng behind this war ,and intellegent people
all know it's not only about the safety ,but also
the benefit for USA.

And more ,bush wants to show the world "his value is
the only truth ,from the only one powerful country".

Should Eveyone in internationl society should obey what
he say and what his value say.

In Star Wars prequel ,Bad guys very wanted the war
to come. But good guys is trying very hard
to avoid. Esepcially Yoda.
And bad guys set them up ,make them as ergent as
ants on a flamming pot ,bad guys let them has no
choice to fight back , and that's very interesting
that bad guys is on the same side as good guys ,
with a "Good Gguy" mask.

Then they can control the galaxy step by step.

I'm not saying bush want to take over the earth,
but he wants his conservative value to domanite and
to be showed off.


Last option? Bush is liar ,a big one.
It's not the time yet to come to what so called
last option.
He MAKE us come to his OPTION ,if somecountry don't
do what he want them to do ,lost benefit between US.


You 2nd point is easy to answer ,
situation is very very different.
Is it realy that ergent to start a war on IRAQ yet?

Please Think about it!


And your "Middle East (which are still living like the Middle Ages, what does being a Muslim country have to do anything with it?)"
shows that you don't know them very well and only trust what US media and Bush goverment told you.

There is not only CNN as the news source in my cable ,but also French TV 5 ,Germany DW ,Japanese
NHK ,2 muslim TV News and 6 other news channels.

Middle-East experts from independent college etc...
always make me think ,if we use US value and US
point of view to see muslim countries too much?

Bush dislike muslim and muslim countries in private ,
he is a so called christian ,he wants to change
the world ,and let the value of his religion to be
spread is one of the reason. That's not nice.

Especially he used "crusade".

The the inside spirite of "peace" that human should
try their best to chase is all what anti-war-ers
want.

Use peace way to bring more peace ,it's side effect
and post-problem is less than use violence.

To use war or violence to solve any problem will
cause other problems that we can't predit and bring
more history traget between US and muslim countries.

We don't want bush's way ,we don't want's bush's
value to be spread to the world.

It's like anohter kind of dictatorship ,an international culture-or-value dictatorship.

Saddam is bad guy ,Nobody disagree.
But I don't think bush and his team is any
good at all.

USA is our partner ,a peer ,not the only leader of
the whole world.

Don't teach our children that
"If someone is the most powerful guy ,and what
he say must be alway right and must be the only
value every one should boey ,no one should
object".

And don't forget ,over 70% population of the earth
anti this too-rush-and-illegal war.
User avatar
By el Morro
#11546
Where were all the protesters when NATO had to take charge of the mess in Bosnia and Kosovo in particular. No UN resolution there while there was ethnic cleansing going on. Where were they when the US went into Afganistan and wiped out (for the most part) the Taliban? Or the invasion of Panama and Grenada? Or the numerous other times like the Soviet invasion of Afganistan too, or the bombing in Libya? Where was the world when the mess in Ruanda happened. Or the civil unrest in Indonesia?
[quote][/quote]

That's a very good point. We had a discussion about that point today in school and we found in the end that it is very difficult to justifie war anyway. The UN seems to be the right organ, but we should theach everyone to use it correctly
User avatar
By malducin
#11556
Morro I agree. Although war is hardly justifiable any way you cut it, it doesn't mean it should never be used if it's for the greater good. Do anti-war protesters think it was wrong for the US to enter WWII? So it was OK that Hitler killed 6 million Jews and several other Eastern European minorities? The problem is that the UN is becoming like the League of Nations which stoodd by while Hitler and Mussolini armed themselves up and later invaded Poland, North Africa and muich of Europe. By then it was too late.

It's very comendable to be idealistic. Perhaps some people will understand when they become older and more cynical like me.

ewan, yes I'm trashing a lot of the anti war protesters. It was funny when they did this piece in 60 Minutes 2 where they interviewed some preteters. Many didn't know where Irak was, some didn't even know that Saddam was the guyin charge (some mentioned Ossama was the leader of Iraq). One girl didn't even know what excatly she was protesting, she had a sign which had the word Welfare which on camera she misread as Warfare. Another girl was protesting against all the bombs falling, even though that was before hostilities commenced (a few weeks before).

You are right, Iraq didn't attack the US. But I ask, the ant war people as much as they care about peace they don't seem to give a crap about human beings. Tell me, when did they care about those thousands (100,000 at least) of Kurds that got slaughtered. When did they care of the 500 Kuwaitis missing people. When did they care that the UN sanctions helped kill a million Iraquis? So, I guess it's fine that we contain Saddam for another 10 years and have the sanctions kill another million Iraquis?

And just because the majority say something it doesn't make it right. Many times the tough decisions for the good require unpopular decision (talk about taxes ;-).

Much of this mess waqs caused by the US, but now that the Cold War is over, at least they have the guts to clean it up and more or less admit they were wrong (like with Noriega). So sure it'l bnefit the US, but in 30 years it might benefit Iraq and the Middle East. Just look at what Qatar, a progressive Middle East country has done. The US rebuilt France Germany and Japan after WW2, and they are not doing to shabby. Granted there are countless ways this could go wrong but hopefully it'll go right.

So what if there is a more or less imposition of Western values. Is it better to have women in subservient roles, religious rule with Middle age ideals, no voting, etc. If anything the basic values have demosnstrated some of their usefulness, particularly the transition from the imprerialistic and very warlike Japan to a world powerhouse.

Bush is not as conservative as the media makes it out to be, though he does pander a lot to them which is a shame. He is not the sharpest crayon in the yard, heck the whole school ;-). yeah sure Bush has lied, but are you comparing his lies to Saddam saying he destroyed all the anthrax, ohhh but sorry there are no witnesses or way to verify it? Sorry I'll take Bush's lies over Saddam's regimes'.

And my second point was easy to answer? I don't see how you answered anything about the 100,000 dead Kurds maybe more. So in your view should we let Saddam keep killing the other ethnic groups? Doesn't it sound hypocritical when the World thought it was OK to bomb Yugoslavia to stop Milosevick ethnic cleansing? Most of the world didn't care about the half a million dead in Ruanda. So I guess as long as the killing is not to someone culturally or ethnically close to you, noone should care.

It was funny because here in DC were a few rallies pro-war. You know who some of those were? Exiled Kurds and Iraquis, the same people who have most at stake.

And yes the Middle East lives like the Middle Age is right. And I do know them probably better than you. I've travelled to the Middle East and I had several friends who were Muslims. Tell me how not letting women vote is anything but archaic thinking? Heck in Western societies, including the US, the Bible was used to justify that women shouldn't vote, that s;lavery was alright, and many moer atrocities and unjustice. But they learned. And frankly it's not only the Middle East but most of world which is ignorant, one has only to watch one episode of Jerry Springer to know how much is in in the US itself.

Bush does not dislike the muslims in private and I would love to see your proof. If going to church is you proof, well that is nothing compared to what all this religious zealots preaching Jihan and hate (not all of them, just to be clear). So he used crusade, as I said not very smart guy but then all these people talking about Jihad (whose meaning is not actually Holy War in the sense of violence).

And don't get me started about values. Anyway I prefer to live in a place where women have equal rights, there is democracy, free speech and free press, but maybe that's just me.

Tell me how is peace gonna take care of Saddam? Did peace do anything about Pol Pot or Idi Amin? Or Hitler? Some people are just evil, and the only way to deal with them is remove them by force. If Bush and Blair do follow on on the Palestinian state, there is still a chance.

Anyway this conversation has become tiresome, it's the time on Sprockets when we dance!!! Duuuu-durum- ptp-tptt!!!
User avatar
By EwanMagic
#11558
malducin wrote:Morro I agree. Although war is hardly justifiable any way you cut it, it doesn't mean it should never be used if it's for the greater good. Do anti-war protesters think it was wrong for the US to enter WWII? So it was OK that Hitler killed 6 million Jews and several other Eastern European minorities? The problem is that the UN is becoming like the League of Nations which stoodd by while Hitler and Mussolini armed themselves up and later invaded Poland, North Africa and muich of Europe. By then it was too late.


Do you mean saddam start WWIII already ,and
he has already invade other countries?
So that why US enter WWIII (war on iraq)?
I think you are not serious ,right?

So ,we should kill someone and let many people
killed in such a RUSH way?

So the new GAME-RULE of international issues
should be set only by BUSH?



It's very comendable to be idealistic. Perhaps some people will understand when they become older and more cynical like me.


There are tons of older and cynical people
in the anit-BushAndForHisOwnGoodWar side.

That's not a war for so called justice and
freedom. It's a war for makeing BUSH more
benefit.


ewan, yes I'm trashing a lot of the anti war protesters. It was funny when they did this piece in 60 Minutes 2 where they interviewed some preteters. Many didn't know where Irak was, some didn't even know that Saddam was the guyin charge (some mentioned Ossama was the leader of Iraq). One girl didn't even know what excatly she was protesting, she had a sign which had the word Welfare which on camera she misread as Warfare. Another girl was protesting against all the bombs falling, even though that was before hostilities commenced (a few weeks before).


I saw more pro-BushForHisWarOnIraq people
lacks of knowledge about international issue
too.

They only trust what Bush goverment and US
media told them.

Some of them didn't even know there are other
countries besides US ,they know about iraq for
the first time when media told them "there is
a war on iraq".

If you want to compare ,there are more these kind
of donw-know-a-bit-about-internationl-issue people
in BOTH side.


You are right, Iraq didn't attack the US. But I ask, the ant war people as much as they care about peace they don't seem to give a crap about human beings. Tell me, when did they care about those thousands (100,000 at least) of Kurds that got slaughtered. When did they care of the 500 Kuwaitis missing people. When did they care that the UN sanctions helped kill a million Iraquis? So, I guess it's fine that we contain Saddam for another 10 years and have the sanctions kill another million Iraquis?


In here ,most anti-war not only anit the war
US start ,but also the war IRAQ cause.

But there is only one pushing-point in
a time (at least at that moment ).

And US's action is the very big one HAPPENING
in these moments (the biggest pushing-point for
this moment ,this time).

Not evey anti-war people has the same reason and
same theory.

This war is not that simple ,there are more and
more internationl politic consideration behind
it.

Bush also want to show us "US has biggest fist ,so his way we should obey".

That make us feel chilling down from my feet
to my head.

And just because the majority say something it doesn't make it right. Many times the tough decisions for the good require unpopular decision (talk about taxes ;-).


Then that's what we call internationl-political-
dictatorship.

Bush and his team is very good at it.

He do want he want ,no matter what most people
say.


Much of this mess waqs caused by the US, but now that the Cold War is over, at least they have the guts to clean it up and more or less admit they were wrong (like with Noriega). So sure it'l bnefit the US, but in 30 years it might benefit Iraq and the Middle East. Just look at what Qatar, a progressive Middle East country has done. The US rebuilt France Germany and Japan after WW2, and they are not doing to shabby. Granted there are countless ways this could go wrong but hopefully it'll go right.



Oh my ,you are brainshed by BUSH goverment.
Do you really think he spent 75 billion US dollars
and sacrifice other people's life is for those
phony reasons?

So you admit ,BUSH want EVERY COUNTRY IN THIS WORLD
TO GO ,ON THE WAY HE WISH TO?

Make my heart chill again.


So what if there is a more or less imposition of Western values. Is it better to have women in subservient roles, religious rule with Middle age ideals, no voting, etc. If anything the basic values have demosnstrated some of their usefulness, particularly the transition from the imprerialistic and very warlike Japan to a world powerhouse.

Bush is not as conservative as the media makes it out to be, though he does pander a lot to them which is a shame. He is not the sharpest crayon in the yard, heck the whole school ;-). yeah sure Bush has lied, but are you comparing his lies to Saddam saying he destroyed all the anthrax, ohhh but sorry there are no witnesses or way to verify it? Sorry I'll take Bush's lies over Saddam's regimes'.



It's sad my english is not as good as my mother-language.

I have a 30,000 words reply to many people
like you ,and they never reply again.

Shame ,I hope my english knowledge is good
enough to translate it.

What I said didn't mean muslim countries should
remain their old value ,we agree they should change
,but not in the way BUSH WANT THEM ,that's the
whole point. Social innovation should be made
by themself ,to reach world-common-goal (not
BUSH's).



And my second point was easy to answer? I don't see how you answered anything about the 100,000 dead Kurds maybe more. So in your view should we let Saddam keep killing the other ethnic groups? Doesn't it sound hypocritical when the World thought it was OK to bomb Yugoslavia to stop Milosevick ethnic cleansing? Most of the world didn't care about the half a million dead in Ruanda. So I guess as long as the killing is not to someone culturally or ethnically close to you, noone should care.


In my view ,saddam must be stop ,but no by a
too-rush WAR. And the reason behind this war,
you really think the hypocritical reasons BUSH
told you?

People are dying ,don't do something to make
more die. (Don't use volience to stop volience ,
cause in this way ,there will be more voliecnce
return ,and cause NEW PROBLEMs between US and Muslim
world).


And yes the Middle East lives like the Middle Age is right.


Sure ,from your value. They are like
middle age.



Bush does not dislike the muslims in private and I would love to see your proof. If going to church is you proof, well that is nothing compared to what all this religious zealots preaching Jihan and hate (not all of them, just to be clear). So he used crusade, as I said not very smart guy but then all these people talking about Jihad (whose meaning is not actually Holy War in the sense of violence).


Well ,that's easy.
They dislike each other. We should stop them (to
dislike each other).

Shame on both side.

But ,sad ,bush has most powerful army behind
him.



And don't get me started about values. Anyway I prefer to live in a place where women have equal rights, there is democracy, free speech and free press, but maybe that's just me.


Yeas ,who doesn't ,but not in BUSH's way.
And the MAIN REASON bush do today is not for iraq,
a democracy iraq is easy to make benefit
(include international political mono-ism benefit) for him.

(ps. He anti-gay too. That's bad thing.
He is against one of the important
human-right issue in the world. )



Tell me how is peace gonna take care of Saddam? Did peace do anything about Pol Pot or Idi Amin? Or Hitler? Some people are just evil, and the only way to deal with them is remove them by force. If Bush and Blair do follow on on the Palestinian state, there is still a chance.

Anyway this conversation has become tiresome, it's the time on Sprockets when we dance!!! Duuuu-durum- ptp-tptt!!!


My belief is ,humanbeing should learn how
to solve problem with no-violent way.

Are we out of Creativity?

I will support useing force to remove them ,if
in this way ,there will be 100% safe (no one
will be killed).

So we should invent new weapon in the future ,
a weapon only save ,never kill.

And again ,saddam is bad.
But that doesn't make bush righ.
Every one should stop them right away ,but
ont by the worst way from a single country
,and the reason behind it is not as simple as what them told us.

We don't want to live in a world that looks
like every one is free ,but look inside it
,a world shaped by bush's way and still have
rules-and-values he made and want us to follow.

World-Common-Value is set by every members
of this world.

A place you can be what you really are ,love (
or tolerant) one another.

And since the war is going on ,we don't have
power to do anything to change the history.

(Usually ,history is shpaed by few poeple,
saddly ,most of them are not good guys).


Just hope the war will be end and saddam get
caught as soon as possible.

Most importantly ,let iraqi people decide their
own future.

Give their oil seeling right out in FAIR way
(not under US's press ,under no one's press
,the real freedom should not be controled by
a hand behind them).


And anyway.....

I don't want to piss malducin off ,I like
you very much. I hope our argument is
only discussion ,though we watch thing (at
least this time)at very differnt angle.


I just (and ONLY) don't like what bush is doing
and his way.

That Doesn't mean I don't like USA.
In fact ,so many of my angles to look at
myself and the world are from USA people.
Surely ,they are not from the right-wing and
conservative side ,but from progressive ,enlightened
liberal side.
User avatar
By EwanMagic
#11619
Bush goverment want to lead
every re-build or oil businese
to those companies that have a GOOD RELATIONSHIP
WITH BUSH and bush goverment.


That's really not fair to iraqi people
and international community.

And not fair to other companies in U.S. (if
they are not having good relationship with
bush or spent money on bush goverment).

Even U.K. goverment and medias have something
to say about this.