Open discussion about ILM and the magic they create. Also VFX and movies in general. Anyone can post topics here.

Moderator: malducin

#30803
Boooo!! I say boo to stiff animatronics and wobbly heads. Boo to shots designed to frame out operators and hide limited movement.

As great as the sculpts and texturing are, I really am a proponent of full cg for this type of show. Of course it depends on the scene as to wether an animatronic might work, but generally with JP the puppets have not felt alive to me. Impressive in their scale, but puppets nonetheless.
#30819
Boooo!! I say boo to stiff animatronics and wobbly heads. Boo to shots designed to frame out operators and hide limited movement.

As great as the sculpts and texturing are, I really am a proponent of full cg for this type of show. Of course it depends on the scene as to wether an animatronic might work, but generally with JP the puppets have not felt alive to me. Impressive in their scale, but puppets nonetheless.
:lol:

As much as I love practical fx, I have to agree with you about the mix in the JP franchise. It has probably been the least successful at blending digital and practical than any other big franchise.

I hope they've made big strides in animatronics, or use them sparingly for inserts or quick shots here and there.
#30828
But guys, don't you know that Colin said he'd be using animatronics? That's because Colin knows how CG is just a shoddy fad that's overused and that "practical" automatically means it'll be better than anything CG could accomplish! The whole project's gonna' be practical! Animatronics = absolutely no CGI! :lol:
As much as I love practical fx, I have to agree with you about the mix in the JP franchise. It has probably been the least successful at blending digital and practical than any other big franchise.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing more about this opinion of yours, Shane/aslan. :) I mean, I won't deny that (despite the amazing craftsmanship of the time) SWS's work in the first film...isn't aging well (dinosaurs with Parkinson's), but what other franchise has even tried a mix of CG/practical on the scale that the JP films have? I might just be having a brainfart here, but I honestly can't think of a franchise (or film alone) that has even attempted collaborative FX work on the same scale (in terms of using a large amount of both CG and practical and trying to blend them).

EDIT: The Narnia franchise, maybe. But I wouldn't say their blending of methods was any more or less successful than JP's.
I hope they've made big strides in animatronics, or use them sparingly for inserts or quick shots here and there.
I'm assuming it will be relatively limited.

Think of the progression of CG/practical of the first three films (25/75, 50/50, 75/25), and then consider that it's been over a decade since JPIII. I'd be hard pressed to say that a JP film in 2015 - even one that states they'll be using animatronics and is pretty much a nostalgia movie - would even entertain the idea of maintaining the 75/25 ratio of CG to practical that JPIII had in 2001. I'm guessing a 95/5 ratio of CG to practical is what we'll see.

Legacy Effects' work can still serve their purpose - designs in pre-pro, maquettes for scanning, animatronics for quick inserts, lighting reference or on-set interaction. But I just honestly can't see them going for a "Raptors in the Kitchen"-scene with today's CG technology at their disposal.
#30830
I was thinking of the Men In Black franchise, especially the first film. Even in 97, I thought it didn't have a tight blend of practical and CG. I suppose it was the way they were shot. MIB 2 was more successful in that regard.

You said it best: traditional animatronic character work is best for development and on-set lighting. I loved the old creature days. And in a whimsical story they still have their place. But in a setting where photorealism and mobility needs to be top-level, CG is better now.

Maybe Guillermo and JJ are pouting the way? Guillermo del Toro has shown you can do animatronic and practical work in interesting new ways. JJ seems to also be exploring new approaches for that craft too. I hope so.
#30837
I've always been torn on animatronics. I love reading about the process and enjoy the behind the scenes talent, but few and far between are the shots convincing to me. The sense of being limited and hemmed in always jumped out at me. I could feel the guys off screen working the cables. I guess no other franchise has attempted the same scale of animatronics as JP. I can't recall one either Tyler. But the disparity between cg and puppet was always hugely obvious to me. I was always baffled by people praising the blend. The puppets are superbly sculpted and designed, but they look like leaden lumps when they move. The triceratops in the first film should be absolutely real, it's limited movement requirements should play into the strengths of practical, yet it feels like a lump of clay to me. And I hate saying this. I don't like criticising such skilled artists and performers. It's not them, for me it's just the nature of the process.

However I think an increased use of practical with cg addition can work well as it develops. There is an alien character on the show Falling Skies that has Doug Jones in a suit, which is then digitally manipulated to give a very organic performance, and it really works for me. Maybe for JP partial animatronics blended to cg in the same shot could be a solution?
#30843
Yeah, I love the practical/CG hybrid stuff where they take an animatronic character or makeup fx as the foundation or base of the fx and then add CG touches and flourishes to it to give it more life. The Falling Skies alien is a great example of that aslan. The work with him on the show(I've only watched a few episodes over the last year or so) seems very effective.

I think FXguide had a thing on him recently. Hold on.

edit:

Here it is: http://www.fxguide.com/quicktakes/creat ... ing-skies/

Looks like the makeup fx are by Todd Masters(Look Who's Talking films).
#31090
Return of the Jedi was in 1983... The Phantom Menace was in 1999. 16 years difference.

The Last Crusade was in 1989... Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was in 2008. 19 years difference.

Jurassic Park III was in 2001... Jurassic World will be 2015. 14 years difference.

I don't know about you guys, but the more I think about how the technology and realism of VFX advanced in those 16/19 years for the SW and IJ flicks, the more I get :omg: about what Jurassic World's dinosaurs might look like. We've had a taste of what ILM's dinosaurs in this day and age will look like (Lucy, Age of Extinction), but consider the difference in VFX appearance and methods between RotJ and TPM or TLC and KotCS... how on earth are they going to improve upon JPIII's work on a similar scale? JPIII's work still holds up to this day, in my opinion, so how can they make a RotJ-to-TPM level improvement without completely blowing our minds?!
#31247
Well, we've now got a glimpse of what ILM's work will be like...

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/traile ... r#/slide/1

Although I'm not a big fan of the whole "watch a 15 second teaser for the trailer that's coming out in five days"-thing, I must say

Image

It seems that the little bit of dinosaur work in Trans4mers is quite similar to the JPIV work. Still not quite sure what to make of it, but I can't wait to see more. :D (And, of course, the inevitable "they're ruining the franchise with too much CGI"-comments...)
User avatar
By aslan
#31256
Oh !!!

I'm obviously a reactionary type of fellow, and it's only 10 seconds of footage I know, but it looks like the opposite of everything I had hoped for. I'm sure it will be an exiting and well made film and the vfx will be well done, just not the way I would have liked. I wanted a continuation of the first films agenda to make the dino's absolutely real animals, but this doesn't seem to be the case. They look to be maintaining the now standard approach to the way dino's look and move, from adverts to documentaries, it's the same thing again and again. It's not bad, it's just so... routine. The animation style has never altered in any representation of dino's anywhere, and I can visualise in my mind a much more naturalistic and raw manner of movement, so I'm damn sure that talented animators can do the same, and better, than my small vision.

Through absolutely no-ones fault, I have unreasonably taken against this film. But I did the same with Cowboys and Aliens, and ended up enjoying that.
User avatar
By ShaneP
#31257
I refuse to take a stance one way or the other right now based on a few seconds of footage. I want to see how well the story and world-building works.

So I declare my neutrality! Im like Switzerland right now….neutral but progressive and heavily-armed. :P
#31260
VFX will be outstanding....the rest of the movie is where I have my doubts :roll:

Not even Amblin on their own anymore its a co-production with Legendary Pictures & Universal to spread the risk.
Largely unknown cast cheap to hire which keeps the budget low & allows them to have high quality VFX & production design.

I fear another souless sequel like JP3 was :frown:
User avatar
By aslan
#31263
Yeah, the story seems limited. Things go wrong in the park and chaos ensues. Wasn't this the plot of Jaws 3? I think I would have preferred the dino soldiers concept.

Saw the trailer on a crappy version. Aquatic dino leaping from the water looks good.
#31268
By far the only decent thing in the trailer were the WIP CGI Dinos everything else looked pretty limited scope wise I can see why they hired a no global presence cast this thing would cost $200-250m with decent actors you cared about so why not just throw the budget into VFX & throw the actors into their CGI mouths... :wink:

From executive Producer Steven Spielberg gives me a bad vibe like Universal expect this to underperform but had to try & recoup the lengthy pre-production costs somehow :eek:

If its PG they will get a few families next June but I doubt teens are going to be lining up for this somehow........
#31269
I won't comment on the story (I do that below), so VFX-wise...

:| I...I don't know what to think. The VFX is top-notch (even if it is WIP), but...I don't know how to describe it. I hate to sound like a hipster who's all anti-CGI. It's photoreal but not good? It's almost too perfect. The earlier films suffered from lack of technology to make things "perfect", but their work still looked phenomenal because of the way they animated, lit, shot and edited them. Simpler was better. Nowadays you have the technology to make the absolute most perfect CG model of a dinosaur...but in its perfection it looks worse than the "primitive" work from the earlier films.

Compare the Gallimimus stampede between 1993 and 2015. The 1993 work is blurry and simple, but it works. Was the CG model absolutely 100% detailed? No. The 2015 work looks like the best CGI that CGI can offer, but...it just doesn't look as convincing. It's almost lost that feeling of being a "Jurassic Park movie" and has stepped into the territory of "this could be any generic monster/sci-fi/dinosaur movie". I had the same feelings when I saw King Kong in 2005. That was only four years after JPIII, but even back then I could tell "This CGI is better than the JP films, but it doesn't LOOK as good or real". I didn't have the knowledge back then to articulate it, but deep down I knew that "this is filmed differently than the JP movies".

Does that make sense? Maybe I'm just crazy. I'll see the movie multiple times and love it, but yeah...

Also, hooray for a brief shot of the T.rex! :D That shot where you see the massive theropod feet chasing Pratt towards the door is definitely the Rex, you can see his dinky, two-fingered arms popping into frame at the top.
Yeah, the story seems limited. Things go wrong in the park and chaos ensues. Wasn't this the plot of Jaws 3? I think I would have preferred the dino soldiers concept.
I love the franchise as much as the next guy, and I'll see twelve JP movies if they keep making them, but it's just not a concept that I think has longevity when it comes to sequels. Dinosaurs on an island theme park, chaos ensues. Bring the dinosaurs to the mainland, chaos ensues. Go back to the (a) island for a rescue mission, chaos ensues. In my opinion, you can't go much larger in scale than that unless you go FULL SCI-FI and do highly intelligent dinosaur soldiers or aliens or make them kaiju sized. Dinosaurs and chaos can only go so far. The earth can only be invaded by so many Decepticons. The earth can only be avenged from so many space titans wanting to rule it. Bond can go on forever because you keep adding villains and changing the actor. But JP? How many will the world accept? It's an idea about dinosaurs on an island...it can only be stretched so far.
From executive Producer Steven Spielberg gives me a bad vibe like Universal expect this to underperform but had to try & recoup the lengthy pre-production costs somehow :eek:
I don't see why this gives you a bad vibe. That's how marketing works. You use the biggest name to advertise and draw people in. They couldn't say "From the director of Safety Not Guaranteed...". :lol: They couldn't even say "From director Colin Trevorrow...". It's a Jurassic Park sequel, a franchise that was helmed by Speilberg for years and he's back in the EP chair. Totally understandable that they'd go with the "HEY GUISE HERE'S A NAME YOU'LL ALL RECOGNIZE!"-angle. You wouldn't advertise Transformers as "From Producer Ian Bryce and Brian Goldner...", would you?
If its PG they will get a few families next June but I doubt teens are going to be lining up for this somehow........
This has the "Toy Story 3 Handicap" going for it. No doubt that this movie will make mad bank at the box office (your movie has to actively spray the audience with hot cat urine in order for it to bomb these days), but my guess as to where majority of the audience is going to be? In the 20-40 year range. You know, the people who were 5-20 years old when the other three came out. "I've been waiting 14 years for a new Jurassic Park movie, so get the f**k out of my way!" All the kids who grew up with JP and are now young adults will be racing to the theatre in droves.
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By aslan
#31275
Regarding the limited story appearance, when the title Jurassic WORLD was announced, I had visions of a more expansive plot. Given that the end of JP3 showed the dino's escaping the island I wanted something along the lines of the animals breeding in the wild, upsetting the balance of nature with their introducing unnatural dna and behaviour into the eco-system. It plays into Ian Malcolm's dialogue and themes from the first film, two ages of history not meant to share the same space or time.

That's why I'm so disappointed that we have got the same plot rehashed it seems. For me this is a poor trailer in that it has actively turned me against the product. Of the limited ways you can go with the concept, they seem to have chosen the absolute worst.
#31282
Regarding the limited story appearance, when the title Jurassic WORLD was announced, I had visions of a more expansive plot. Given that the end of JP3 showed the dino's escaping the island I wanted something along the lines of the animals breeding in the wild, upsetting the balance of nature with their introducing unnatural dna and behaviour into the eco-system. It plays into Ian Malcolm's dialogue and themes from the first film, two ages of history not meant to share the same space or time.
Image

Well, dang...

Image

I think you might've ruined the movie for me, aslan. Because JWorld now has some big shoes to fill if it wants to compete with the grand idea that you've shared.

That's the problem with fan ideas. 99% of them utter trash and fan-wank nonsense. Then there's the 1% of the ideas that are actually awesome.
User avatar
By aslan
#31289
:lol: No, pretty much everything I think up falls into the 99% category. I just always assumed this is the way the franchise would develop after the issue was raised in the original film. Would have been nice for it to have some gravitas and meaning.

Of course the film may yet deal with these issues, and better than I could imagine.