Open discussion about ILM and the magic they create. Also VFX and movies in general. Anyone can post topics here.

Moderator: malducin

#33796
ShaneP wrote:
vfx fan wrote:I saw BLACK PANTHER.

Interestingly, Method Studios is the first fx studio to be credited at the end, even though ILM is credited on the poster, which would lead me to assume they were the main vendor...though they didn't get a movie poster credit in THOR RAGNOROK but got listed first in the credits for that. What is the pattern anymore?

Don't know who was involved in what.


Well this is an entirely huge subject on its own. In many cases, vfx credits are arbitrary, political, and truncated. And the number of shots doesnt address the complexity of shots or their sophistication or even their importance in the narrative.

The other thing I have noticed over the last several years is those studios residing in places with large subsidies also have a tendency to have HUGE crews. Now, I don't know if there are other issues like large shot counts, tight schedules, etc that makes that also a reason for the large staff. But some of those shows done by facilities in subsidy countries appear, at least on initial examination, to have huge crews larger than otherwise.
It makes me wonder why that is. I do know that vfx margins are said to be slim or non-existent, so I'm not sure it is an issue of subsidies leading to inflated staffs. I doubt that. But, there does appear to be an interesting correlation, if not causation. Is it just a matter of some vfx companies have different methods requiring larger crews? Is it an issue of some vfx companies have more political sway in obtaining larger credits in a film?
It is an established fact that ILM in the 80s had a reputation that did lead to their credit, "visual effects by Industrial Light and Magic", placed on the official movie posters and filmmaker listings. You even mentioned their placement in Marvel film lobby posters and movie posters. But then that leads to the question: is that mostly a corporate synergistic move because Disney is also Marvel and Disney is also ILM, etc?
There doesn't appear to be a common pattern to the placement of vfx crews, their numbers, their omission, or who is listed first, etc.
Method did do look dev and conceptualization on Black Panther so maybe they were the first onboard the film and so were listed first?
It is hard to say.


Something else I've noticed, that's more-or-less along the same lines, is when it comes to movies that have upwards of a dozen or more vendors, some vendors are listed simply as their company name.
...
Trixster
...
That's it. No employee names, no positions. Sometimes multiple vendors just have company names listed together under a single "Visual Effects" title.

VISUAL EFFECTS

Trixster
Hy*drau*lx
Rising Sun Picture
Etc..

So was their involvement so minimal that people don't even get credited? Not even the supervisor? Was it a case of only ONE person from said company working on it? Even so, what's the logic of leaving them uncredited? I've worked on projects where certain supply vendors weren't specifically credited for their work - sometimes they're listed under "Special Thanks", and sometimes not at all, so I know crediting people is a (n unfortunately) tricky and political process. :-?
#33797
Yeah they just clump them all together into a bunch. I doubt it just means they didn't do much work. I think it's simply politics and lack of respect for the whole profession.
The same lack of respect happens now when you watch any movie or show on tv and they have the credits shrink into a little box up in the corner while they run their promos for the upcoming show. That or they run the credits at x10 the speed so blink and you'll miss them.
#33799
And a piece from artofvfx with production vfx supervisor Geoffrey Bauman:

http://www.artofvfx.com/black-panther-g ... l-studios/

vfx studio shot count and summary of what they did per the article:

"capital T – 41 shots – Compositing, simple blue screen, split comps, clean up.
Double Negative – 78 shots – 3rd act Vibranium Mine fight.
Exceptional Minds – 38 – Compositing, simple blue screen, split comps, clean up.
Ghost – 41 shots – 3rd act interior shots as Ross flies RTF hologram.
ILM – 403 shots – Shots throughout the film focusing heavily on the enviroments of Wakanda and the Golden City.
Luma – 232 shots – The casino fight, and car chase that follows, as well as the CIA blacksite.
Mammal – 578 shots – Compositing, simple blue screen, split comps, clean up, as well as all temp comps and color for the few non VFX shots.
Method – 407 shots – Primarily the 3rd act on top of Mount Beshanga, they also did some of the work in Shuri’s lab.
RiseFX – 180 shots – Built and designed Jabariland. They also helped out in Shuri’s lab.
Scanline – 385 shots – The big focus here was the waterfall environment for the two sequences that take place here. They also did the work at the British museum and abandoned airfield in Korea.
Storm – 8 shots – The prologue.
Trixter – 205 – The Nigeria extraction as well as the Oakland apartment."


Gee, they shot the film in Atlanta....which we all acknowledge we had in mind when we envisioned the fictional African country of Wakanda. :|

Can you say SUBSIDIES?
Last edited by ShaneP on Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#33801
Kmart wrote:the fact pinewood set up shot in GA speaks volumes.


I heard that. Geesh. At what point does history and culture and heritage and community connections to a place matter? Everyone plays the subsidy game now but this bowing down to global corporations who can uproot on a whim to chase the latest tax break is disgraceful. It elevates business above communities and people.

Another point about this self-titled "empowering film"....could they have shot any of this fabled African country actually in Africa and employed people and communities there? I think they shot plates there.
#33802
WRINKLE was supposed to shoot main unit in NZ and wound up only doing a plate shoot, so that is becoming or falling back into being the norm. Of course, that is the whole virtual production end of things too, the idea being you don't have to take the whole crew someplace (sort of the antithesis of the old I SPY series, where they made a virtue of location work during an era when everybody else was doing it all with rp.
#33803
Kmart wrote:WRINKLE was supposed to shoot main unit in NZ and wound up only doing a plate shoot, so that is becoming or falling back into being the norm. Of course, that is the whole virtual production end of things too, the idea being you don't have to take the whole crew someplace (sort of the antithesis of the old I SPY series, where they made a virtue of location work during an era when everybody else was doing it all with rp.


Well I can see the point in plates and shooting at a home base or studio lot. They've done that for years in Hollywood. But, it is happening all over now and its a chase to see which local state or national government can give multi-billion dollar studios the most generous tax break.
Plates are great if you actually shoot decent stuff. But if that is your default or starting point...eh. At least the new Star Wars films still shoot around the world as they all have....even though they too take advantage of the UK film industry subsidies.

And it is all happening simultaneously with vfx companies bidding at cost or below cost. It is insane. I don't blame the vfx studios because they simply have little leverage to control where the film studios go. The studios and governments control and dictate where the most favorable labor market is. And I don't mean favorable for the artists.

What needs to happen is profit sharing triggered at a certain level of box office success or a form of a legacy dividend for all vfx workers.
What Lucasfilm should do is establish a legacy dividend for all of their veteran alum that gives them a certain % of box office profits on films they've worked on ongoing and retroactively. Lucas film makes a ton of money in box office and rentals. Give the people who have actually helped make that happen a percentage of that success above their rate.
#33808
aslan wrote:Eric Barba didn't stay long then? Too bad, but very glad for Jeff.


Roughly two years as Creative Dir. at ILM Vancouver. Interestingly, ILM.com still lists him on their talent page and they've updated it to say that he currently serves as an ILM supervisor in the Los Angeles area. Maybe he didnt like Vancouver or missed the LA area? But they haven't taken his page offline yet. Then again, they still have Steve Rawlins up and he's worked at DNeg for several months now. And they're still way behind on adding new vfx and animation supervisors.

So really, it is interesting they updated Barba's bio but didnt take his page down. This suggests he is still with them in some capacity.
#33809
Black Panther at AWN:

https://www.awn.com/vfxworld/piecing-to ... her-screen

Here are the specific sequences done by ILM per the article:

"Baumann says Industrial Light & Magic was tasked primarily with creating the landscapes of Wakanda, including the high-tech Golden City, as well as the border regions, the Hall of Kings and the dog fight for a total of just more than 400 shots."
#33819
PaulILMFan wrote:http://deadline.com/2018/03/michael-bay-robopocalypse-6-underground-directing-movies-1202315936/
Robopocalypse is bound to be an ILM show with Bay directing & Spielberg producing!


God, Spielberg tried to get that made years ago. I don't know if ILM did some development on it back then but he shelved it years ago and turned to....I think it was War Horse and Lincoln. That's how long ago it was.

Interesting Bay picks up ANOTHER robot film.

6 Underground? I wonder if the Sneaker Pimps are involved?
#33820
ShaneP wrote:
PaulILMFan wrote:http://deadline.com/2018/03/michael-bay-robopocalypse-6-underground-directing-movies-1202315936/
Robopocalypse is bound to be an ILM show with Bay directing & Spielberg producing!


God, Spielberg tried to get that made years ago. I don't know if ILM did some development on it back then but he shelved it years ago and turned to....I think it was War Horse and Lincoln. That's how long ago it was.

Interesting Bay picks up ANOTHER robot film.

6 Underground? I wonder if the Sneaker Pimps are involved?
ILM were involved back then as I seem to remember some talk around containing costs to get it made by using new CG techniques as it was too expensive without retooling. Now its probably way cheaper & Spielberg is still involved as Producer so I guess the announcement will come soon if Bay wants to do it next.
#33821
Yes. I did some checking and turns off it was after War Horse and Lincoln he was developing it. Still nice to see him returning to it albeit as a producer.

I think the articles are all suggesting Bay is doing 6 Underground first and then Robopocalypse.

The great thing about Bay is he at least brings top notch ILM work to the screen as well as an large portion of live action shooting that then incorporates vfx into it rather than just purely synthetic vfx shots. I like his methods if not some of his films.

Really liked 13 Hours and The Rock though.
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