Open discussion about ILM and the magic they create. Also VFX and movies in general. Anyone can post topics here.

Moderator: malducin

By Terrell
#24124
As for GL needing to start ILM to make SW ... if he'd been willing to work with Trumbull instead of dictate to him, I bet he wouldn't have needed to form ILM to make SW ... and I bet SW would have looked better than it did


Lucas did just fine without Trumbull, and no, Trumbull would not have made Star Wars look any better. The film already looked incredible and the effects were almost a decade ahead of it's time.

As for Davy Jones, the most astonishingly real CG character ever put to film. Congrats to ILM.

while the other half is a load of alienating, uninvolving CGI Stephen Sommers sub-par digital Harryhausen blitz


I see Ahem is sticking to his anti-CG mantra.
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By malducin
#24128
The CGTalk thread brings an interesting point. Should I even try to setup interviews about the film? There is quite a bit of info posted by the ILMers there.

If I had my wish I would have multiple interviews covering all aspects, even already have a collaborator to do some.
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By el rancor
#24131
Hi, I'm new here. Sorry but my english is very, very limited :(

I know that Davey Jones is a great visual effects and the most realistic character, reading your comments but what happens with the Kraken??

I don't see the movie yet and I'm interested in that character.

Thanks
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By el rancor
#24132
Malducin, i'm looking for a avatar of Rancor but.... :roll: 8)
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By jonroberts
#24133
el rancor wrote:Malducin, i'm looking for a avatar of Rancor but.... :roll: 8)


Ask WETA sure they will do one for you!!! :lol:

Welcome El Rancor
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By Ahem
#24134
[quote="Terrell"][quote]while the other half is a load of alienating, uninvolving CGI Stephen Sommers sub-par digital Harryhausen blitz[/quote]

I see Ahem is sticking to his anti-CG mantra.[/quote]

News to me, as I don't own one.

I was refering to the bad directorial use of CG (particularly character stuff), in my opinion.
Last edited by Ahem on Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Shane
#24136
Malducin
The CGTalk thread brings an interesting point. Should I even try to setup interviews about the film? There is quite a bit of info posted by the ILMers there.

Well, maybe go through that thread, pick out what is covered there, and then try and ask different questions not addressed there. That might be a way to delve into other things not discussed.

Maybe ask questions about things not being talked about as much....like Cannibal Island, the ships, Krakken, and other fx?

Still, a few Davey Jones questions couldn't hurt. :D

Another idea would be to maybe do a interview discussing the challenges of the first two films together and looking to World's End(without being too specific of course on #3).
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By Shane
#24137
John Knoll said over at CGTalk that they did 979 shots in 5 months.

:eek:

The fact they're as great as they are with such a schedule is a real testament to the ILM team's efforts and artistry.
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By EwanMagic
#24138
Shane wrote:John Knoll said over at CGTalk that they did 979 shots in 5 months.

:eek:

The fact they're as great as they are with such a schedule is a real testament to the ILM team's efforts and artistry.


near 1 thousand near perfect FX host done only within 5 months.

I was so shoked by that fact as well.

Quality or Time?, choose one?

But ILM pull both off.

Can you imagine, if give them more time, Maybe a year,
how more bars can be raised?
How much more the evenlop can be pushed ?

:omg:
By Kmart
#24141
Terrell wrote:
As for GL needing to start ILM to make SW ... if he'd been willing to work with Trumbull instead of dictate to him, I bet he wouldn't have needed to form ILM to make SW ... and I bet SW would have looked better than it did


Lucas did just fine without Trumbull, and no, Trumbull would not have made Star Wars look any better. The film already looked incredible and the effects were almost a decade ahead of it's time.


Going by that last line, I guess you never saw 2001.

As for the rest ... the idea that SW wouldn't have looked better if Trumbull had done it is just crazy. The guy's stuff almost always looked better than everybody else's. Geez, I was 16 when SW came out, and even so, when the blockade runner got swallowed by the big tortilla chip I had already lost the buzz from the big open and was bitching to the folks with me about the matte line. With Trumbull, I bet that wouldn't have happened.

Considering the show is probably 95% bluescreen at least (muren has said some of the shots where fighters pass BEHIND deathstar turrets and structures were shot double pass not bluescreen), I suppose the fact that it isn't like LOGAN'S RUN with matte lines is miraculous, but it still ain't often gorgeous, whereas Trumbull's stuff always is. Editorially, the SW fx work pretty great, but that is as much a tribute to the score and sound efx and fantabulous editing as to the fx themselves.
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By ShaneP
#24142
Kmart, what was it about Trumbull's work that didn't seem to have obvious matte lines? Did he hide them with the illuminated miniatures shot in smoke? He did that alot(shot in smoke) in his stuff didn't he? How did he do that?

CE3K's lighted miniatures seem devoid of matte lines. A few of the paintings show them, but overall there is, through Blade Runner,CE3K,etc. a distinct lack of obvious matte lines.

CE3K's work is still one of my favorites. As for Trumbull making SW look better, well that's conjecture but it is interesting to imagine.

Lucas I guess wanted something rougher and edgier: quick cuts, sense of speed, etc. Trumbull was right to turn him onto Dykstra. Trumbull's stuff seemed too eloquent.

If you look at Battlestar Galactica, it has some of that same aesthetic as Star Wars....matte lines and all. Understandable given it's alot of the same folks.

Trumbull's stuff has its own style.
By Kmart
#24143
I think it is mainly methodologies. Trumbull used frontlight-backlight and frontlight-frontlight matting (on CE3K and Trek and BR), rather than bluescreen. He also used frontprojection to put starfields behind ships in SILENT RUNNING. I think the only problems I recall with CLOSE ENCOUNTERS have to do with the mothership being a lil transparent during some flyovers, shoddy roto I guess.

If you read Muren's old comments from the 70s about what he wished was in SW, that's probably where I think Trumbull would have been at: sun glare on cockpit windows, that kinda thing.

And with his operation, doing that kind of thing was possible, whereas w/ bluescreen it wasn't for quite awhile (I discount the reverse blue of FIREFOX cuz it was shiny but didn't look great -- I think shiny & bluescreen type shooting only starts working -- and only at ILM -- with BTTF 2 and ST TUC)

The one thing they had with ILM on the first SW that they mightnot have had with Trumbull is enthusiasm, so I'll grant that made a difference.
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By Ahem
#24144
I think quantity is the main factor.

Like KMART said, Trumbull was a stickler regarding image compositing, but that only inherently meant a restricted number of shots per film. I'd like to note the advent of APOGEE on ST TMP, in order to reach the effects count within budget/time, and I doubt the number was anywhere near what was on Star Wars.

Trumbull also never really worked with composited high speed pyro in any of his most famous films, so this unfamiliar ground might have hurt him conjeuring up element photography. The dogfight explosions that Edlund/Dykstra/Visckocil got on STAR WARS were genuinely, completely new cinema visuals, and I don't even think EEG with a creative overcranked cloud tank could have come near to what was completed.

KMART is damn right and there's no argument concerning what Trumbull would have done with STAR WARS compositing wise. However, ILM's innovations (something that lasted post Dykstra) for the first time allowed for production line visual effects with all of the conceptual ambition of a Trumbull show. The compromises (variable compositing, model photography and cel animation) were only an understandable, easily excused side effect, in my opinion.
Last edited by Ahem on Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By Kmart
#24145
Wouldn't argue too much of that, though ST TMP had something like 570 fx shots running well over half the pic's runtime. ILM had something like 365 on SW, also running about half the film's runtime (well maybe not ... all those things done outside of ILM add up to a hunk of screen time, the light sabers and the hand lasers and the 30 seconds of cgi) ...

I don' t know the division of screen time vs division of shots on TMP, but I'm pretty sure Trumbull had about two-thirds of the show, which is like doing SW in 8 months (but with the tech already on hand, big dif I grant you.)

I think Trumbull would have squabbled over flames in space, and tried giving them glows and as you say, cloud tank stuff, but if he did cave and do pyro, I figure it would have had some better integration than the supered stuff (like the TIEs) iin SW, something where you see the ship start to blow before the flame comes in (like the x-wing stuff, only instead looking really good.)

I don't know that Trumbull could have beat the opening shot in SW because I'm not sure how lenswise you could have got that field of view in 65mm without a model the size of a house. Then again, I imagine he'd've at least had some lights on the star destroyer (maybe self-illuminating!)
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By The Cynic
#24147
Alright, enough of the fantasy of Trumbull doing STAR WARS...Delightful as that topic was, and still is...Wonder what Trumbull is up to these days...Still working on the ultimate theme park ride? There hasn't been a breakthrough in theme park rides lately..Or has there? BTW- BRAINSTORM was the sh*t! I was 13 when it was released and it blew my mind... Interesting as much of the early virtual reality stuff in the film will probably happen soon, if not already...Same with STRANGE DAYS....

I digress...Not the topic at hand...I will be viwing POTC2 at the El Capitan at 1120pm Sat. night....Now I have heard so much about the CG Davey Jones and his mates that I am probably setting myself up for a big letdown...Or is this a real breakthrough? As for critics saying the action sequences go on too long...GOOD! I'd rather see a 30 minute action scene than some scenes that babble on for an eternity when you go to a movie about pirates and sea monsters....

BTW-Speaking of Trumbull, just got Cinefex 1 (Star Trek TMP/Alien) and #9 (Blade Runner) on eBay....
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By el rancor
#24148
jonroberts wrote:Welcome El Rancor


Thank's :roll:
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By malducin
#24156
Welcome to the boards el rancor!!! I'll see about putting an appropiate avatar later, though that's a bit low priority now.

Seems ILM is swamped so there might not be any coverage here until much much later, maybe even after Cinefex comes out. The problem is that I leave for SIGGRAPH in 2 weeks, so at this point time is extremely tight. If we did interviews this Monday (which aer not set up) they would barely be ready before I left for Siggy (under the best circumstances). If not we would have to wait till I get back, which would be till August 13 and then take it from there. Yikes!!! very frustrating. Maybe a miracle will happen.
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By The Cynic
#24159
Say what you will about the film itself...I personally enjoyed the first one more, this one was slow to get going then went batsh*t...Jack was more of a caricature this time...Still love the character, and the audience did as well, but this film for some reason seemed rather over the top....Still was very pleased with the imagery.....In fact, completely blown away...Davey Jones was extraordinary...Absolutely amazing, I kept saying to myself "He's CG, but I cannot see that at all"...Holy mackerel! The lip sync with Jones's crew! Stunning! The Kraken attacks in full daylight! Loved the animation but for some reason the Kraken scenes felt, well, bland...Technically amazing...Love the violent action...Even the girl I took to the film who I have bored with my endless rants on the complexity of the effects we were about to see said that she thought the Kraken would be scarier...Had a ton of fun but ultimately I personally was marginally disappointed with the film.... Seemed a bit overblown...Still very entertained....Perhaps it was the fact I was ill and it was a 1120 pm showing.....Will look forward to the DVD where I can freeze frame and capture the exquisite detail on Davey Jones and his crew....Totally groundbreaking stuff!
By Kmart
#24160
The Cynic wrote:Alright, enough of the fantasy of Trumbull doing STAR WARS...Delightful as that topic was, and still is...Wonder what Trumbull is up to these days...Still working on the ultimate theme park ride? There hasn't been a breakthrough in theme park rides lately..Or has there? BTW- BRAINSTORM was the sh*t! I was 13 when it was released and it blew my mind... Interesting as much of the early virtual reality stuff in the film will probably happen soon, if not already...Same with STRANGE DAYS....

I digress...Not the topic at hand...I will be viwing POTC2 at the El Capitan at 1120pm Sat. night....Now I have heard so much about the CG Davey Jones and his mates that I am probably setting myself up for a big letdown...Or is this a real breakthrough? As for critics saying the action sequences go on too long...GOOD! I'd rather see a 30 minute action scene than some scenes that babble on for an eternity when you go to a movie about pirates and sea monsters....

BTW-Speaking of Trumbull, just got Cinefex 1 (Star Trek TMP/Alien) and #9 (Blade Runner) on eBay....


How much did you pay? As for Trumbull, he pulled a galileo and said '2k is good enough' in an interview several years back, apparently throwing in the towel about making high quality imagery in the face of so many morons grinding out stuff that looked worse and worse.